A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
For more on what's next for Venezuela, we've called up Eduardo Gamarra. He's a professor of politics and international relations at Florida International University. Professor, I saw that Machado dropped off her Nobel Prize at the White House, and she left with what appeared to be a Trump-branded gift bag. So aside from that, what do you think she walked away from in this meeting?
EDUARDO GAMARRA: Well, that's an interesting question because, in fact, I think what she finally obtained is a face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump, something that she's been seeking for a while. In fact, she's been an outspoken supporter of Donald Trump for the last few years. And - but yet she had never had this face-to-face with him, and he wasn't too receptive of her, as you know, until now. So she's gained something in the sense that he's recognized her. And at the same time, I think President Trump is able to kind of bridge this gap that he had somewhat critical in the Venezuelan community, which saw his closeness to Delcy Rodriguez, the current interim president of Venezuela, as problematic. So this way, the president is able to say, yes, I'm talking to both of these women, and he's leaving open the possibility that Maria Corina Machado will be the person leading the democratic transition, although we clearly don't know when that will be.
MARTÍNEZ: Right. It's almost been two weeks since everything went down in Venezuela. I know that a lot of people want answers quickly, but is that enough time to actually come up with a plan?
GAMARRA: No, clearly not. And I think the calculus that the administration has taken is one that - I mean, they've repeated it a number of times, which is the only possibility of stability in Venezuela today, is, in fact, working with the very regime that they haven't deposed. And the only way to pursue the Trump administration's objectives of securing control over the oil industry and of long-term investment in the oil industry is, in fact, working with this regime, working with Delcy and working with all of the other questionable individuals, some of whom form part of the indictment against Nicolás Maduro.
MARTÍNEZ: There was a poll that came out this week by the Caracas firm Meganalisis, and it surveyed more than a thousand people. Ninety-two percent of Venezuelans feel grateful to Donald Trump. Two-thirds believe the U.S. is not in control. And Machado has said before that she would bury socialism forever in Venezuela. So I'm wondering what would be the reason why Donald Trump would not back Corina Machado right away?
GAMARRA: I think the whole issue has to do with stability. The unfortunate reality is that Maria Corina Machado, while she enjoys overwhelming support in Venezuela and among the exile community, she doesn't have a structure of - that would allow her, in fact, to ensure political stability in Venezuela. And many of the things that she would have to do and which probably Delcy Rodriguez will have to do is deal with the narcotics trafficking structures that remain intact, with the gang structures that remain intact, with the colectivos, the militia structures that remain intact, and probably above all, controlling the military and the intelligence institutions that are largely controlled by Diosdado Cabello, the other man indicted in Washington - in New York, but who is still - who still forms part of this governing coalition.
MARTÍNEZ: In the last couple of weeks, Professor, Venezuelans have told me that Delcy Rodriguez to them is as complicit as Nicolás Maduro has been for the state of Venezuela. If that indeed is the case, I mean, when you think about what this future for Venezuela looks like, how could it possibly include anyone in Maduro's government?
GAMARRA: Well, there's an old adage in Latin America that transitions like this, and particularly problematic transitions imply swallowing frogs, right? And that essentially means that in order to move Venezuela forward, you have to work with some rather heinous people, including Delcy, who is - has been a part of this regime and was very close to Maduro, in fact. And so in the near future, I think working with Delcy is still going to be key despite her terrible background.
MARTÍNEZ: All right, that's Eduardo Gamarra, Professor of politics and international relations at Florida International University. Professor, thank you very much.
GAMARRA: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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