SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Just outside Vatican City, on the day the College of Cardinals begins the voting to choose a new pope, the question on everybody's minds - will that new pope continue the legacy of Pope Francis or reject some of the more surprising moves he took during his 12-year papacy? We have spent the week talking to Catholics with very different ideas about how the church should move forward. And today, I wanted to hear from the hosts of a podcast that over the years, I have listened to to follow news from the Vatican and the rest of the Catholic world. Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis host the podcast "Jesuitical." It's put out by the Jesuit-affiliated America Magazine. They're in Rome to cover the conclave. Thanks for joining us.
ZAC DAVIS: Hey. Great to be here, Scott.
ASHLEY MCKINLESS: Thanks for having us.
DETROW: Ashley, I'll start with you. The both of you, everybody from America Magazine, is cranking out podcasts and articles in this stretch. You're working very hard. I'm curious what your general impressions are of this moment for the church right now here in Rome.
MCKINLESS: Well, it is a huge historic moment, and you can tell that the entire world is interested just by the number of journalists here. But one thing that has struck me most is how seriously the cardinals take their responsibility in making this decision. You know, when you vote in a democracy, you know, it's your vote, representing one person. This is 133 men representing over a billion Catholics worldwide. And I think they understand that who they choose matters to a lot of people. There was a rather epic thunderstorm in Rome...
DETROW: Oh, yeah.
MCKINLESS: ...So that kept me awake. And as I was kind of tossing and turning in bed just a few hundred yards from the Vatican, I just had this image of 133 cardinals in a similar situation, just thinking about what they were going to have to do in the next couple of days.
DETROW: A lot of media outlets, a lot of commentators are really framing, this is what's at stake in this enclave. These are the big questions in front of the Catholic Church. You both spent a lot of time thinking about this and reporting on this. What to each of you are the big stakes of this moment, the key forks in the road that the Catholic Church is thinking about?
DAVIS: You know, I think Pope Francis was a real reformer. And inevitably, whatever the outcome of this conclave is, it's going to be seen as a referendum on whether the Catholic Church wants to continue down on these reforms that Pope Francis has started because he really didn't finish a lot of the things he started. He was a pope who liked to launch balloons and see where they went. And he really left a lot of freedom up to his successor as to where they landed. So whoever's chosen - even what the pope is wearing when he comes out on that loggia that we're looking at - you know, Francis came out there in the simple, white cassock. He chose to live not in the Apostolic Palace, but in the Casa Santa Marta, which was the Vatican guesthouse. I think a couple decisions really quickly are going to be interpreted by the rest of the world as, what does this new pope want to do?
MCKINLESS: And I think it matters for the world more broadly. When Pope Francis was elected in 2013, the church was in a real crisis. It was in a financial crisis. It was still reeling from the sexual abuse crisis. And so Pope Francis did have this mandate to reform the church, as Zac said. But he undertook those reforms not so that the church itself would be this pristine institution, but so that it could look outward to the world. And so if the church was in crisis in 2013, I think we can say the world is in crisis right now. And the papacy has this unique place on the world stage, where it's a real moral authority. And I think without Pope Francis there, we've lost that. And whoever is chosen to be the next pope will have a lot on his plate when it comes to global diplomacy - wars in multiple countries, the rise of right-wing authoritarianism.
DETROW: Shifting gears a little - you are both now older than you were when you started a podcast aimed at young Catholics. But, especially in the world of religion, you're both very young. You're invested in the Catholic Church. You're both religious. That's - especially in the United States - that is a minority position for younger people. And I'm wondering if either of you have given thought - starting off with this - why you think that is, why you think so many people your age and younger have drifted away from organized religion and view themselves as secular or nonreligious.
DAVIS: I think there's a lot of reasons for that. As it relates to maybe who the pope is going to be, I think one of the reasons that Pope Francis connected with so many people is because he was authentic, right? And people say all the time that young people see right through pomp and circumstance. And if you just look out here, there is a lot of pomp and circumstance here, right?
DETROW: Yes.
DAVIS: I think it matters a great deal who this sort of figurehead - especially in the age of social media, like, Pope Francis was infinitely memable (ph), right? So and you can see that in the days after his death that people were really reflecting on sort of the impressions that he left upon them.
DETROW: On one hand, there's a lot of factors in 2025 to pull people away from the world of organized religion. On the other hand, there are a lot of indications that people, in one way or another, want belonging at this moment in time, and sometimes they're finding them in conspiracy theories. Sometimes they're finding them in a whole wide range of different places. I'm curious if each of you think there's a few things that the Catholic Church can do to try to - obviously, young people have different priorities all over the world, but let's just talk about United States, so let's talk about the Western hemisphere - things that the church can do beyond who it selects next to try to appeal to younger people who may be on the verge of interested in this organization.
DAVIS: A couple of things - one, I think a radical commitment to the poor and the marginalized, which was something that Francis sort of put at the center of his pontificate, something that Jesus put at the center of his ministry. I think people found that refreshing and exciting. And I think if the church continues to rediscover that within itself and promote that part of itself, I think that will do a great deal. I also think there's a lot of sort of structural changes that we could look at shaking up in the United States.
MCKINLESS: Whenever the church moves forward, it does so by looking back and drawing on the best of its tradition. And so when I think about attracting young people or just others who have fallen away from the faith, bringing them back, I think you've got to focus on the basics. You know, the mass is - started as a meal. And so instead of us trying to come up with all this creative programming to attract the youth, make sure that that meal is as nourishing as possible. And I think, you know, literally having mass with a meal - like, you know, mass and then meal - because, as you said, people are - they're bowling alone. They're dining alone. There's a lot of loneliness. And I think a Catholic Church that can provide that sort of community that's not getting together for the sake of not being alone, but is centered on Jesus and the Eucharist, that there is hunger for something like that.
DAVIS: I think a universal ban on smartphones would actually be wildly appealing to some people that feel tethered to them, so...
DETROW: Yes.
DAVIS: ...Maybe that's an option.
DETROW: We can propose that to whoever emerges from this balcony...
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: ...In a few days. That is Zac Davis and Ashley McKinless, cohosts of the America Magazine podcast, "Jesuitical." Thanks so much.
DAVIS: Thanks, Scott.
MCKINLESS: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF PETE ROCK'S "A LITTLE SOUL")
DETROW: And remember, once there is white smoke, NPR will have live special coverage as we learn the name of the new pontiff and see him emerge on that balcony for the first time to address the world. You can hear it on your radio, smart speaker or online at npr.org.
(SOUNDBITE OF PETE ROCK'S "A LITTLE SOUL") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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